How can we have free will without sin in heaven, but can't do so on earth?

My background is in the reformed tradition, which necessarily impacts my response, but I would go all the way back to Augustine to find historic Christian thought on the subject. Augustine taught that there were four states of man's nature:

• Man pre-fall, able to either sin or not sin (posse peccare, posse non peccare)
• Man post-fall, unable to refrain from sin (non posse non peccare)
• Regenerate man, able not to sin (posse non peccare), and
• Glorified man, unable to sin (non posse peccare).

The driving factor for whether man can sin depends on whence the impulse to sin originates. Man sins when his will is drawn to evil; when he is tempted (Jonathan Edwards expounds on this extensively in Freedom of the Will). Adam and Eve were subjected to temptation in the Garden of Eden and failed as moral agents. Each of us is tempted daily, entrapped by our sinful natures, the world, and the devil, and we fail. Once glorified and as residents of Heaven, however, we will no longer be exposed to temptation from those sources; the devil will be thrown into the lake of fire, and we will be clothed in fine linen. As a result, our free will is unencumbered to do righteousness.

posted about 4 years ago

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Sigma‭ staff

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it is possible (somehow) for God to make a place where we both have free will and yet cannot sin (as hard as it is for us to understand)

To understand whether this is possible or not, it is helpful to first look at our terms. What do we mean by "free will"?

In a bizarre, self-contradictory way it seems accepted wisdom that "free" means "free from all constraints". That's not a very useful concept, and is an oxymoron. We are better off asking questions like "what are we free from?", "what measure of freedom do we have?".

A more useful way to define "free will" is the freedom to follow our desires (our 'will') without coercion. Although we obviously can never have complete freedom in this regard, we certainly have some freedom. If we are rich and powerful we may even have more freedom than others do — though even the rich get ill (and die) when they do not want to. Conversely in some places and times, freedom is constrained, but still exists to a lesser degree.

Defined like that, we can see that a change in desire does not negate 'free will'. If we want to sin, we are free to sin. If the desire for sin is taken away from us, we are free to follow our other desires, without sin — especially if sin is fundamentally understood as being rooted in desire (see James 1:13-15 and 2 Peter 1:3-4).

Why doesn't that same logic apply to us in heaven?

The exact same logic applies in the new creation, if you allow that our desires can be altered without altering our freedom to live them out. This is the concept of Jeremiah's 'new covenant':

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:33 ESV)

The law written on their hearts denotes a change of heart; a change of desire. We were, are and always will be, free to follow our heart. We never were, are not and never will be, free from the power of God to change our heart.

posted about 4 years ago

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4y ago by qohelet‭

Jack Douglas‭

41 reputation 0 1 4 0

(written on my cell, will add references later)

In the new Heaven, there will be no Sin, as it will be eradicated. It is my opinion that free will can absolutely exist without sin. Jesus is the perfect example of that. He had full autonomy from the Father. This would explain the temptation in the desert, and also Him asking the Father to remove the cup of suffering he was about to experience when praying in the garden of Gethsemane.

In terms of my denomination, i'm non-denominational. I come from an 'unchurched' background and my beliefs and opinions stem from a lot of different reading. I would say i'm somewhere between baptist and evangelical/Pentecostal. In a nutshell, I read the bible and approach it as truth.

I have read some of the ante-Nicene fathers work such as St Augustine. I agree in large with Sigma's comment on his (Augustine's) approach however, I am not sure our autonomy is removed once sin is removed. I don't see any scriptural evidence for that.

I think in a nutshell, there's no real answer to this that we can truly know is correct. This is part of the mystery of God and His creation. But I do think that we can talk a lot around it and make some reasonable speculation that's rooted in scripture.

I believe inherently that, God cannot create something that is imperfect. But he does create things that can become imperfect. This must be an aspect of the autonomy of free will. The ability for someone to learn something, have the choice to act upon and thus create the opportunity for a righteous or sinful act. We see this all throughout scripture. in the story of Adam and Eve we see it first. But from this point on, our very nature became impregnated with that knowledge. We call it sin. But even then, there is always a choice one makes. See for example the story of Cain and Abel, Abraham, Jonah etc.

We also see this in the story of the fall of Satan. A third of the host of heaven including Lucifer was thrown down from it.

We also read that there will be a new heaven and a new earth. As well as new bodies. So there's something about the current ones that aren't complete right now. There's something about the two falls that tainted them and created a need for a new creation.

What is it about the new creation that won't have decay like the old one? In my personal opinion, I believe there will still be free will. I think the big difference is all those who are in heaven - both angels and humans have gone through tribulation. They've been tested by their faith.

If I can believe in Jesus and keep to the faith on my time in a fallen earth - even whilst my very own nature is fallen. Then when I receive a new body and I'm worshipping the triune God where sin has been eradicated, I can't see anybody wanting anything else other than to worship Him.

posted about 4 years ago

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4y ago

mattbrent‭ staff

127 reputation 0 4 11 3

What's in a word?

The Merriam Webster online dictionary defines "free will" as:

1 : voluntary choice or decision

I do this of my own free will

2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

The emphasis is on choice and decision.

However, the same dictionary defines "freedom" as:

1 : the quality or state of being free: such as

a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action

[etc.]

Here we have absence of necessity, etc., in choice or action.

The distinction between freedom of choice and freedom of action is critical to answering the question.

But first, why bring "freedom" into it when the question is about "free will"?

The Bible promises freedom, not free will

Search the Bible for "free will" in any of the commonly used translations, and you will come up empty. "Free will" is not a biblical term.

However, search for words such as "free," "freedom," "liberty," and there will be many hits, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament.

What the Bible speaks of and promises us is not "free will," but freedom. To quote one key example:

Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, 'You will be made free'?"

Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:31-36, NRSV)

There are many more instances. See, for example, Psalm 119:45; Isaiah 61:1; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Galatians 5:1-15.

It is important to understand that though we may speak of "free will," what the Lord actually promises us in the Bible is that if we follow God's way, we will be free.

Freedom of choice vs. freedom of action

Now let's consider the critical distinction between freedom of choice and freedom of action.

The question as asked dwells largely on freedom of choice. Specifically, it focuses on the freedom to choose between good and evil, or between between righteousness and sin.

However, freedom of choice is not the only kind of freedom. And ultimately, it is not the most important kind of freedom.

Yes, it is important for us to be able to choose between different possible courses of action, especially including good and evil courses of action. But what meaning does this freedom of choice have if, having made the choice, we are not free to act upon it?

Freedom of choice is our primary freedom on earth

Spiritually speaking, here on earth our primary freedom is the freedom to choose between good and evil, between righteousness and sin. The Bible continually lays this choice in front of us. Making this choice is our primary "labor" during this earthly lifetime.

However, we may or may not have the freedom to act upon our choice. Legal, social, and financial strictures limit our freedom of action in many ways. We can act on some, but by no means all of our choices to do good, or to do evil.

Freedom of action is our primary freedom in heaven

In heaven, that order of freedoms is reversed. There, our primary freedom is freedom of action. Why? Because by the time we reach the afterlife, we have already made our choice between good and evil. If we enter heaven, we have chosen good over evil.

In fact, one of the freedoms of heaven is the freedom from the fear of losing salvation. Christians have debated "once saved, always saved" for many years. By the time we get to heaven, that debate is settled for us. There, we have "rest from our labors" (Revelation 14:13) of fighting the battle to choose between good and evil, salvation and damnation, that commonly consumes us here on earth.

The primary freedom we have in heaven is the freedom to act upon the choice for God, and for good, that we made during our lifetime on earth. There, we are no longer constrained by external legal, social, and financial strictures from acting upon our choice to live a life full of the love, goodness, and truth that come to us from the Lord.

Even in heaven, we can still make choices between different courses of action. But our choices will always come from a heart filled with the love of God and the neighbor. We will therefore never choose to do evil.

However, the key point to understand is that although we have already made the "big" choice between good and evil, and therefore don't have that particular freedom of choice as we did on earth, we have the far greater freedom of being at full liberty to act according to the choice we have made to accept and live by God's love.

Further, the lack of freedom to choose evil to eternity is no real lack of freedom at all. Rather, it is a lack of danger of falling back into slavery. And when we are living in heaven, choosing to do evil is the last thing we would ever want to do. As Jesus said:

Everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. . . . So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8:34, 36)

Perspective

This answer is written from a New Church, or Swedenborgian, perspective.

posted over 3 years ago

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Lee Woofenden‭

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Out sinful desires come from our fallen bodies (our flesh).

For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 8:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. ¹⁴ But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. ¹⁵ Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

James 1:13-15

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, ²¹ who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Philippians 3:20-21

So it is also crucial that we receive new/regenerate bodies, so our own desires no longer entice us to sin.

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44

As to why God chose to allow us to fall, there is some answer. I think the argument is that God's love and character can be made more wonderful to us by our starting in a fallen state and being exalted from that.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” ²⁰ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” ²¹ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? ²² What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, ²³ in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Romans 9:19-23

As shown above, though, it is not for us to question His purposes. We are of lower stature and have lower thoughts than His, so it doesn't necessarily matter what we think, only that we trust His will with faith.

_{All verses are taken from the English Standard Version (ESV).}

posted about 4 years ago

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mbomb007‭

27 reputation 0 3 1 6

1. In 1 Corinthians chapter 13 says that the knowledge will have an end. Meaning that we will know fully.
2. I think it is quite clear that one person's beliefs (or faith) is the reflection of his own desire(s). Desire, faith and knowledge -relational or intellectual knowledge - have a strong relationship.
3. God gives salvation based on someone's faith - if I can say so. I think it is not mistaken to conclude that the earthly life is a test/exam.

From 1, 2 and 3 it is obvious - without trying to simplify the complexity of the topic - that in heaven, sinners won't sin anymore.

N.B.1. Maybe our "out of time" state there in heaven (if it would be so) would have also an impact on the topic.

N.B.2. Another - maybe interesting - topic which I think about is: what does perfection means in heaven? Does it mean that we will do everything perfect from the first time? Will be perfecting ourselves on a sinless state basis? I know this somehow brings in discussion my first point. But I think the biblical framework is enough to accept the sinless scenario. How this will be realized, we will fully understand there only, in heaven.

posted almost 4 years ago

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4y ago

artaxerxe‭

-2 reputation 1 1 -6 3